Tuesday, November 6, 2012

Fishbowl #2: "The Minister's Black Veil"

Hey guys.  Great work last week on your discussion comments over "The Fall..."  Wow you guys are astute.  Great range of big idea questions & close-reading questions.  Well-proofread responses.  I also love that you guys take the time to compliment one another on each other's great ideas.

A couple suggestions for today:

1.  Avoid close-ended & leading questions in favor of open-ended ones.

     Closed-ended:  Do you think Mrs. Lee is wierd?
     This is a leading question, because in it, you (correctly?) presume that I'm strange.  Remember what we     talked about regarding unbiased survey questions?

     Leading:  "I think the fall of Usher house represents the crumbling of the European Romantic era.  What do you think?
     Let's be honest.  Here, you/ I may be simply trying to show off my critical thinking.  There is a place for that in responding to one another's questions or challenging one another's responses.  Questions, however, are not an effective place for for voicing your analysis.

     Open-ended:  The fall of Usher's house at the story's conclusion seems symbolic.  What do you think it represents and why?
      Here, I invite a variety of responses.  It could be, later, that I decide I want to interject my own interpretation, but begin by letting others express theirs.

2.  Avoid prefacing your comments with "I think..." and "I believe..."  Clearly, these are your thoughts and beliefs.  :)  Instead, just voice them.

3.  Use the threaded comment option to respond directly to people's comments and ideas.

Happy posting, and keep up the good work!

91 comments:

  1. Class- Hawthorne states, "For the Earth too, had on her Black Veil"(Page 3) What are your thought on what this signifies in our modern society?

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    1. I love that question! I would definitely say that he is trying to imply that the world nowadays hides it's sins. Everyone has a veil, covering their sins, because no one wants to admits that they sin. However, at the same time, the fact that you *have* a veil kind of makes people realize that you are hiding sins beneath it...hmm....

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    2. I think that the Earth wearing her black veil is a symbol of the people, past and present, hiding behind their good deeds and keeping their sins secret. The secret overshadows the good and known so the world is hidden behind a shroud of secrecy.

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  2. Where do you think Mr. Hooper got the idea of the veil in the first place?

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    1. He wore the veil as a statement of honesty that he had sinned and it ended up being a part of him. He wanted the town to know that even their minister is imperfect

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    2. Mr. Hooper got the idea of the veil from the whole symbolism which it represents. A veil is a concealing article of clothing and can be permanently worn, which perfectly suited his needs to hide his sins. The veil was his way of symbolically concealing himself from his past.

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  3. If your minister started wearing a black veil, and didn't tell anyone why, how would you respond?

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    1. Macy- Great connecting the short story to our daily life! The veil would just come as a shock, though, a minister is one we tend to respect, so I might feel uncomfortable, but I would still feel a bit of wondering.

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    2. I don't think I would have the same reaction as the villager in this story. I feel like I would be interested, but not scared. Their fear confused me.

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    3. It seems like the response of the townspeople is really dramatic and uncalled for, but honestly, I don't think I would act much different. I mean, it would be really weird if your minister all of a sudden just popped out with a veil. And I think that may have been part of the point. I think it was to shock people into a lesson. Though the effectiveness of his lesson on the townspeople remains to be seen.

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  4. One thing that I noticed was that the minister's veil was hardly ever referred to as just 'the veil'. It was always 'the black veil.' What do you think the significance of the veil being black is?

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    1. Referring to the veil as the black veil is a reminder that a veil is known but a black veil is suspicious. This is like the uncanny that we've been studying.

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    2. Black is a dark color and symbolizes dark ideas. Black is rarely used as a good thing. In this story it is also used as a description of a negative object and just helps set the tone of the story and of the black veil.

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    3. When Mrs. Lee had us write down the first words that came to mind, when she put up "black" one of the first words that came to mind for me was hidden. I feel like the black might signify even better that he has secrets.

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    4. Hailey- Great point, black I feel means of course darkness and eerie thoughts, but the veil signifies the mystery behind a material that acts as a door between knowing, and unknowing. I also noticed that every so often Hawthorne uses "dark veil" in a capital manner, "Dark Veil". I think that this is interesting and signifies that the veil operates as almost another extension of a person's ideas and mystery.

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  5. What difference would there be, if any, to the story had the veil been a different color? How important is the color black to the story?

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    1. That kind of goes along with my question, and I think that if the veil was white, it would have given off a much more innocent, gentle vibe. However,it being black, it made the villagers wonder what he was 'hiding'. I definitely think black had a huge part in making the tone of this story dark and gloomy.

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    2. No other colors, besides red, have the evil connotation that black has. Think about it, if the story was based around a lime-green veil, most people wouldn't be concerned. They would probably think about a middle school girl or the springtime. The town wouldn't be scared of him if there wasn't a negative connotation with his veil.

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  6. What did you guys find at the significance of the ending scene where the veil was still over the minister's face? What could this symbolize for the rest of society to do?

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    1. I understood that as societies misconceptions still latching on to him.

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    2. To me, this represented the fact that people would rather die with their sins rather than confessing and letting people know that they did in fact sin.

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  7. Class: Although this story was written in the mid 1800's, it seemingly holds a very pertinent message. What do you think is the connection between this story and the social importance on appearance today?

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    1. Brooke-This story clearly connects to modern day life today. The people in the village all of a sudden became very fearful of their minister, even though they may have known him for many years beforehand. His own wife left him because he changed his appearance. I think that today, many people are fearful of this happening to them and people leaving them because of the way that they look.

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    2. Brooke- Appearance today revolves around acceptance. The veil acted as an out-casted idea, but this is the piece that intertwines the idea of uncanny. The visual affect of privacy is what the veil signified.

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  8. The color of the veil is black, but if it was white would people still have the same reaction? "He has changed himself into something awful, only by hiding his face." The lady who says this never says anything about the color, only about not seeing his face.

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    1. I think that if the veil were white, then people wouldn't have questioned it as much because white reminds people of purity and black reminds us of darkness and sinfulness.

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    2. The lady that said this wasn't aware that the negative connotation set with black was affecting her. I am certain that if the veil was white, the town would react in a good way because white typically shows pure and weddings. They might be weirded out but they wouldn't be afraid.

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    3. If the veil were to be white instead of black, I think the overall fear that it gives out would be lessened, however I still think the veil would serve its purpose. It would still serve its purpose to conceal the man from what he wishes to hide from others, symbolically and physically.

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  9. Had the color of the veil been, for example, green how do you think the reaction of the townspeople would have changed, if at all? Why do you think changing the color would make such a difference?

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    1. Yes the reaction of the townspeople would have changed because the color black is usually associated with bad, darkness, and evil. Because the veil was black it lead the towns people to be at ends with the minister- a holy man- wearing it with out classifying why.

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    2. It would make a difference because colors make people feel different things and remind them of different things. So if it were a different color people would have felt a different way about it.

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  10. What convinced the town to honor Mr. Hooper's wishes and leave the veil on after his death, without even looking under it?

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    1. Towards the end of the last page Hooper freaks out enough to frighten the towns people. It is not honor so much as convinced that is is not necessary to remove the veil.

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    2. It was solely fear. Just as no one had the courage to ask him about its pertinence when he was alive, they do not wish to question it after he has passed. They only wish to move on and forget.

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    3. Great question! The villagers left the veil on, even after death I think, because Mr. Hooper was respected in town, even after the whole veil incident. He was a well-known, friendly minister, and that represents the familiar in the uncanny. The veil represented the unfamiliar. I also think that maybe a reason they left it on is because they were scared. They didn't want to see what was underneath, even if he was already dead.

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  11. Who's views and thinking changed more throughout the story, the minister or the peoples? And which one had more of an effect or influence?

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    1. The minister seemed to gain more perspective on the human instinct to question change and criticize it to the extent of creating a fear for this change. The people of the town seemed to maintain their thoughts that the minister had either done something wrong or was hiding something. The minister didn't have a very much influence over the people, even though he gave his sermons they didn't seem to change the town's opinions.

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    2. Jaylin-Because we do not know why the minister decided to wear the veil in the first place, it is hard to say whether or not his thinking changed. I think that the minister had more of an effect on the people than the people did on the minister. Mr. Hooper's wife begged him to take the veil off, and he refused. He even wanted to be buried in the veil. The people had no influence over the minister, but the minister challenged the people to look at their own sins and effected their thinking.

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  12. How is the veil being kept on Mr. Hooper after his death symbolic?

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    1. I think it is symbolic in the sense that we never really shed our mask, our veil. It never leaves mankind. I think the veil was symbolic in itself that it was a physical representation of how we hide ourselves.

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  13. Dialogue is rarely used in these gothic stories, why do you think that is?

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    1. One thing that has been pointed out about the dark romantic stories is that they tend to go a lot more into details, rather than exact constant conversations.

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    2. I hadn't really noticed that, but I definitely think you're right! Since this Gothic period is about feeling and internal stuff, I'm thinking that maybe dialogue isn't the best way to go about that. As a reader, dialogue doesn't make you feel connected to the characters, however description and imagery makes you feel like you can actually see the creepy house or the black veil or that you can actually feel the fear it plants inside of you.

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    3. The descriptions that give the story its dark romantic feeling that is written for the reader rather than the character. Deeper meaning only works if the characters aren't aware of it.

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    4. There is more detail than dialogue because the details can add more effect and paint pictures in your head to set the scene and also make it mysterious.

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    5. This is very symbolic of the concept that when it comes to perception of someone, it does not matter what they do or say. No matter how well they defend themselves they can not change the outward version of themselves that people see.

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    6. By making dialogue rare within these stories it makes the dialogue that actually appears in the story that much more important. Because it doesn't come up very often it has a lot more impact and the reader pays more attention to it. It could be a way of bringing a spotlight over the words being said.

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    7. The authors use fewer quotes because there is more symbolism in descriptions than in just words. Gothic authors also pay more attention to getting to know the scene than getting to know the characters.

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    8. In this reason of not showing dialogue, the author shows that the story doesn't come from what people say but how the reader can interpret it in their own mind. Curiosity would be obliterated if the author is putting the words in your head for you.

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    9. The more dialogue, the more the it paints the picture for you, but by having less, it forced the reader to imagine it on their own, using the tone to fill in the blanks. It also made the story more dramatic, and forced me to use more critical thinking to try and figure the story out.

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    10. The lack of dialogue leaves a lot of room for inference by the readers. These inferences allow many different possible interpretations of the story and also provide many instances of symbolism.

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  14. As we learned about the uncanny, it creates its frightening affect through a combination of being familiar yet unfamiliar. Hawthorne presents a perfect example of the uncanny through the black veil. What is familiar about the veil that creates this fear of the uncanny in our minds?

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    1. It may not so much be that the veil is familiar that creates the uncanny, but rather that the minister is familiar and the veil is not, and both of them together is what makes it so uncanny.

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    2. Totally agree with Kathleen. Wish I would have thought of that! They have known the minister most of their lives and when suddenly he pops up with a veil on his face, that's when they become uncomfortable.

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    3. I think what made the veil so strange was not only the article in itself, but that he never took it off. When I think of a veil in a wedding or even a funeral, you always know that the veil will come off, and the fact that he never removed it was uncomfortable and strange.

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    4. I agree that the combination of the minister, as a bright, good figure, and the black veil create a feeling of unfamiliar and familiar. Though It is the veil that is the unfamiliar piece in this combination. People know the minister, but to cloud himself with a dark piece is confusing to the characters in the story.

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  15. Besides the black veil on the minister, what else could be an example of the uncanny?

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    1. Mr Hooper himself was a familiar yet unfamiliar character. He was familiar to the people because he was the minister and they saw him giving a sermon every Sabbath. But all of a sudden he's a whole different person simply by hiding his face and his expressive features that used to make him warm and known by all.

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  16. I think a sort of byproduct idea that came out of this story was how we as a species are resistant to change. Thoughts?

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    1. I definitely agree! I know that for myself, change is extremely, extremely scary. I am constantly worried about the outcome and how uncomfortable I am and I always think of the worst possible situations. This may be what the villagers are doing....their minister wearing a black veil is so different, and so unexplainable, they immediately jump to conclusions.

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  17. What do you think Hooper's wife leaving him yet coming back at his deathbed represented?

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  18. I think the aboriginal approach Mr. Hooper takes by wearing the veil is a lot like the pendulum swinging from the Puritain side closer to the middle. What do you think?

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    1. I asked almost that same question, funny. I think the minister is strongly influenced to the Puritan side, especially since he is so closely related to religion and the people are left with only their thoughts to guess what he looks like, they don't have any facts. On the other side, I think the people are on the Rational side because they come up with reasonable excuses for his veil and, especially his wife, don't want to put up with the supernatural thoughts the veil evokes.

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  19. Do you think this text had more a Puritan influence or Rational influence or neither?

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    1. Both! Obviously the village is driven by religion and sins and believes their minister is someone to look up to, yet halfway through this, they talk about the physician of the village talking about how Mr. Hooper must be crazy because he wears this veil, bringing the Rational influence into it.

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    2. This text had more Puritan influence because it was more religious and there wasn't any scientific explanation to explain why Mr. Hooper acted like he did. The explanation given at the end was to shield him from sins.

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    3. The story seemed to have more of a Puritan influence just because of one of the focuses or aspects of the story did revolve around religion, but there were still more rational thinking at work compared to The Crucible. But there is too much, and not enough to be classified as either. It seems to be the same for all Dark Romantics, a little bit of both, but still independent enough to be all on its own, with its own title and category.

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  20. On the last page, last paragraph it says, "Father Hooper fell back upon his pillow, a veiled corpse, with a faint smile lingering on the lips." Madeline in the "The Fall of the House of Usher" also had a smile on her face when she was dead, why do you think the corpses have smiles on their face? What does this represent?

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    1. Great connection! Mr. Hooper also had that sad, faint smile on his face a lot of the story. This represents, to me, maybe their willingness to succumb to death. Mr. Hooper had a lot of backlash about the veil and his wife left him...maybe death was a more pleasing option to him. Madeline also really had nothing to live for. She had an incurable disease, so what would the worth of living be?

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    2. It represents that they died accomplishing their purposes they had.

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    3. The smile on the faces of the corpses give the story a creepy feeling because it's almost as if they know something they didn't and they took it to the grave with them or they accomplished what they wanted to even if it wasn't what everyone else expected of them.

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    4. This represents how the death is almost a savior to the people in the story. Madeline and Roderick were suffering in the house from the emotional and mental condition which they were placed in. Father Hooper was kind of an outcast his entire life after committing his sins, and death was almost a relief. The deaths provided them with an escape to their struggles and suffering.

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    5. Alex- Great question!! I noticed the same mentioning of smiles and laughter and the redundancy and meaning of a smile is kind of skewed and forced. The veil creates this way to shield society from seeing an individuals true reasons of what brings a smile and a laugh. Because a face is basically a cheat sheet to who a person truly is.

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  21. Class- What are your views on the veil's impact on custom?

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    1. The veil is a symbol of the unknown, it is scary for anyone to imagine what they do not know or understand. For the veil to hide a pure figure such as a minister, it has a big impact on a town that is decently religious.

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  22. Delivering the idea of fear from the author's writing towards the rest of society (the darkness of the minister scaring people), how does this show on the society of the time? Why does it imply change?

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  23. Class-Why a Minister? No everybody is religious, and not everybody relates to this atmosphere. So what is the importance of this being a minister?

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    1. He is an uncontested ruler of a specific group of people. He can't be voted out of power by citizens, and he has the uninterrupted ability to inspire change, no matter what the cost. Unlike a person who can be taken out of power, his actions have few political consequences.

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    2. Everyone knows what a minister is and what their purpose it so everyone has the relative sense of the holy man who preaches for God.

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    3. Ministers are said to be the cleanest and clearest of minds so Hawthorne was trying to prove that any human mind can become insane, no matter how sane.

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    4. A minister implies a pure holy person who should supposedly be an example for the parishioners. In this story Hawthorne uses a minister to provide irony or to juxtapose black darkness and obscurity to the pureness of a minister.

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    5. Good question! I'd say that it is a minister even though not everyone is religious because a)even if not religious, most people would know the minister and b)because it has a very abrupt change in image, or more over the top? (Can't find the word I want). But it just stands out to people more than if someone else, even if important, had done it.

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    6. I'm not religious at all, but I still hold ministers in high respect (Don't ask me why.) But I think it was important that this character was a minister because how I think of a minister is that he's just a soft, nice old man. And then you smack a black veil on him, something that is out of place, and it offers a grater impact than if a normal citizen did it because a minister is held in such high esteem.

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    7. Great thoughts! I definitely agree with the idea that a minister holds a familiar role with everybody, and he also holds a place of power.

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  24. Why was nobody (other than his lover) able to ask the minister about why he wore the veil? What does the fact that nobody asked represent/say about human nature?

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    1. It is representing peoples fear of the unknown. His wife probably knew him the best so she was still seeing the familiar and was one of the last people that the veil affected. People that didn't know him as well stopped seeing the familiar too soon to confront him.

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    2. They couldn't because they were trusting of him even though they questioned the veil they did not want to question him.

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    3. People may have thought/felt like they were not allowed to or didn't want to know why he wore the veil, like they were more comfortable living with their assumptions.

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    4. Heidi- People are fearful. Our ideals, thoughts, and opinions are based on fear of the unknown. Nice thought!

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  25. I noticed that at one point, Mr. Hooper says, "If it be a sign of mourning, I, perhaps, like most other mortals, have sorrows dark enough to be typified by a black veil." What do you make of this?

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  26. Does the minister stay at an uncanny state throughout the whole story? Do people eventually find him familiar with his strange veil?

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